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	<title>Comments on: Heroes 4&#215;11 &#8220;The Fifth Stage&#8221; review</title>
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	<description>Where everyday fans of science fiction, fantasy and horror gather to discuss their favorite television shows, movies and comics.</description>
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		<title>By: Waterloo</title>
		<link>http://www.lowerdecks.com/2009/12/01/heroes-4x11-the-fifth-stage-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3026</link>
		<dc:creator>Waterloo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Dec 2009 02:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lowerdecks.com/?p=2616#comment-3026</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t agree that the show has been static, rather that it&#039;s been one of the most creative shows I&#039;ve watched in how it handles change.  I already tried to counter the whole nobody-dies argument, so I won&#039;t try that again, but the Hiro from the first season wouldn&#039;t really know what to make of the Hiro from the fourth season.  Just because he doesn&#039;t carry around a sword and wear a pony tail doesn&#039;t mean there hasn&#039;t been any change.  The Future Hiro you reference came from a timeline where Hiro was forced to harden too quickly, so he became basically the opposite of what he was.  The Hiro be actually became had the chance to basically retain the personality we know but take things a little more seriously, in any number of ways, and the fact that he &#039;doesn&#039;t carry a sword is one of them, because he traveled back in time and found out what Kensei was really like.  And that was just the start.

The show never gets credit for what it does because it never goes for the dramatic, permanent change, and it shouldn&#039;t.  To tell the best story it can, it should always have stuck with more or less the same characters it started with.  To do otherwise would have lessoned the overall impact of the series arc.  We don&#039;t have the same twin anymore, but following Tracy has probably been the most rewarding one, because she has more depth, less needless baggage.  We have a vastly different Petrelli family, no more actual Company, and Claire has taken some definite steps away from HRG, which is something the classic &quot;Company Man&quot; actually sought to avoid.

There are other ways to view what the show has done than people generally do, but they&#039;re often overlooked, and so the general opinion is, &#039;Heroes&#039; doesn&#039;t fulfill its potential.  Yes, you could do a lot more dramatic things with it, but at what cost?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree that the show has been static, rather that it&#8217;s been one of the most creative shows I&#8217;ve watched in how it handles change.  I already tried to counter the whole nobody-dies argument, so I won&#8217;t try that again, but the Hiro from the first season wouldn&#8217;t really know what to make of the Hiro from the fourth season.  Just because he doesn&#8217;t carry around a sword and wear a pony tail doesn&#8217;t mean there hasn&#8217;t been any change.  The Future Hiro you reference came from a timeline where Hiro was forced to harden too quickly, so he became basically the opposite of what he was.  The Hiro be actually became had the chance to basically retain the personality we know but take things a little more seriously, in any number of ways, and the fact that he &#8216;doesn&#8217;t carry a sword is one of them, because he traveled back in time and found out what Kensei was really like.  And that was just the start.</p>
<p>The show never gets credit for what it does because it never goes for the dramatic, permanent change, and it shouldn&#8217;t.  To tell the best story it can, it should always have stuck with more or less the same characters it started with.  To do otherwise would have lessoned the overall impact of the series arc.  We don&#8217;t have the same twin anymore, but following Tracy has probably been the most rewarding one, because she has more depth, less needless baggage.  We have a vastly different Petrelli family, no more actual Company, and Claire has taken some definite steps away from HRG, which is something the classic &#8220;Company Man&#8221; actually sought to avoid.</p>
<p>There are other ways to view what the show has done than people generally do, but they&#8217;re often overlooked, and so the general opinion is, &#8216;Heroes&#8217; doesn&#8217;t fulfill its potential.  Yes, you could do a lot more dramatic things with it, but at what cost?</p>
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		<title>By: Quinn</title>
		<link>http://www.lowerdecks.com/2009/12/01/heroes-4x11-the-fifth-stage-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3024</link>
		<dc:creator>Quinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lowerdecks.com/?p=2616#comment-3024</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not saying they don&#039;t know what they&#039;re doing because they&#039;re at least doing a good enough job with the show to keep me watching.  By watching Heroes, I&#039;m admitting that, at least, it&#039;s better than all the stuff that I choose not to watch.

The problem is that the show, at least in my opinion, can be so much better.  And a lot of the things that they&#039;re doing (or not doing) are easily fixed.  It seems like the writers are scared to do anything with any real consequences.  In a lot of ways, it acts like a sitcom...where things might happen over the course of an episode...but you know that things will be back to normal by the next episodes.

With Heroes, it seems like the writers have this idea of an equilibrium...and they&#039;re always fighting to get back to that equilibrium after they do anything significant.  It&#039;s why HRG wasn&#039;t killed when he was shot, why Tracy was brought in to replace Nikki, why DL was brought back after he was seemingly killed, why Nathan survived the assassination attempt, and why Peter was saved when he was killed.

And the characters don&#039;t grow.  When we saw Future Hiro in season one, I was excited about the prospect of growing to that future.  But here we are, four years later, and Hiro is still the same guy we saw.  Even Ando was surprised this season when Hiro appeared without his sword.  Hiro wanted to save the world, but the best he&#039;s done so far is create Dial-A-Hero.  And all he did there was save a cat.

And maybe Nathan really is dead this time, but it&#039;s hard to say that with all the times that people have been brought back.  There&#039;s no way to know whether or not Nathan has a secret twin or a clone or something like that.  

And while the symmetry from season one was a nice moment...I just can&#039;t get passed the fact that Nathan let Sylar escape.  And, from the looks of things, he didn&#039;t even try.  The scene wouldn&#039;t have been ruined if the brothers were trying to come up with a plan when Sylar took back over and threw himself over the roof to escape.  Or, heck, even if they discussed whether or not they thought the fall would kill Sylar.

But they just ignored it, allowing Nathan to (basically) kill himsef and allowing Sylar to escape unscathed.

Which brings me back to my main point.  If Nathan is dead and Parkman is gone and the point for the rest of the season will be to kill Sylar...why not let Parkman make his sacrifice in Texas.  Then the struggle would&#039;ve been between Nathan and the amnesiac Gabriel...and maybe Nathan surrendering to Gabriel could have more meaning (since he&#039;s surrendering to someone who is seeking redemption...instead of a murdering psychopath).

They could&#039;ve done everything they wanted to do, and it would&#039;ve let us know that they&#039;re ready to do something important.

That&#039;s all I&#039;m looking for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying they don&#8217;t know what they&#8217;re doing because they&#8217;re at least doing a good enough job with the show to keep me watching.  By watching Heroes, I&#8217;m admitting that, at least, it&#8217;s better than all the stuff that I choose not to watch.</p>
<p>The problem is that the show, at least in my opinion, can be so much better.  And a lot of the things that they&#8217;re doing (or not doing) are easily fixed.  It seems like the writers are scared to do anything with any real consequences.  In a lot of ways, it acts like a sitcom&#8230;where things might happen over the course of an episode&#8230;but you know that things will be back to normal by the next episodes.</p>
<p>With Heroes, it seems like the writers have this idea of an equilibrium&#8230;and they&#8217;re always fighting to get back to that equilibrium after they do anything significant.  It&#8217;s why HRG wasn&#8217;t killed when he was shot, why Tracy was brought in to replace Nikki, why DL was brought back after he was seemingly killed, why Nathan survived the assassination attempt, and why Peter was saved when he was killed.</p>
<p>And the characters don&#8217;t grow.  When we saw Future Hiro in season one, I was excited about the prospect of growing to that future.  But here we are, four years later, and Hiro is still the same guy we saw.  Even Ando was surprised this season when Hiro appeared without his sword.  Hiro wanted to save the world, but the best he&#8217;s done so far is create Dial-A-Hero.  And all he did there was save a cat.</p>
<p>And maybe Nathan really is dead this time, but it&#8217;s hard to say that with all the times that people have been brought back.  There&#8217;s no way to know whether or not Nathan has a secret twin or a clone or something like that.  </p>
<p>And while the symmetry from season one was a nice moment&#8230;I just can&#8217;t get passed the fact that Nathan let Sylar escape.  And, from the looks of things, he didn&#8217;t even try.  The scene wouldn&#8217;t have been ruined if the brothers were trying to come up with a plan when Sylar took back over and threw himself over the roof to escape.  Or, heck, even if they discussed whether or not they thought the fall would kill Sylar.</p>
<p>But they just ignored it, allowing Nathan to (basically) kill himsef and allowing Sylar to escape unscathed.</p>
<p>Which brings me back to my main point.  If Nathan is dead and Parkman is gone and the point for the rest of the season will be to kill Sylar&#8230;why not let Parkman make his sacrifice in Texas.  Then the struggle would&#8217;ve been between Nathan and the amnesiac Gabriel&#8230;and maybe Nathan surrendering to Gabriel could have more meaning (since he&#8217;s surrendering to someone who is seeking redemption&#8230;instead of a murdering psychopath).</p>
<p>They could&#8217;ve done everything they wanted to do, and it would&#8217;ve let us know that they&#8217;re ready to do something important.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s all I&#8217;m looking for.</p>
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		<title>By: Waterloo</title>
		<link>http://www.lowerdecks.com/2009/12/01/heroes-4x11-the-fifth-stage-review/comment-page-1/#comment-3018</link>
		<dc:creator>Waterloo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 00:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lowerdecks.com/?p=2616#comment-3018</guid>
		<description>I just have a feeling whether or not this will be the show&#039;s final season, it&#039;ll be Sylar&#039;s finale.  

In a way, it was a symbolic gesture on Nathan&#039;s part, at least as far as the writers were concerned, since the whole scene was recalling to mind the first episode where he and Peter were on the rooftop and Peter was convinced he could fly.  But it was really Nathan who could.  Peter jumping caused Nathan to play his hand.  At this point, Nathan made perhaps his final bad judgment, thinking he could end it or at least his own predicament by jumping.  I don&#039;t think he was thinking how best to kill Sylar.  I think he must have believed that since he was in control, there was a reasonable chance that he might be killing them both.  Clearly, Parkman&#039;s attempt(s) didn&#039;t work.  (For all we know, it was Sylar keeping Parkman alive after he was shot.)  If Nathan had any reasonable expectation to assume he could plan out a better way, then maybe he would have, but clearly it was a constant struggle to keep his own identity in control.

As for the Sylar fixation, he still serves his basic purpose of maintaining an alternate version of what to do with powers.  He&#039;s been as much a victim and villain throughout the four seasons.  Granted, he&#039;s made a lot of bad decisions (and he wouldn&#039;t be the only one; that&#039;s how the Company was formed, and how most of the Petrellis operated for years, and what HRG did for a living, etc.), and it becomes a little hard to see how he can redeem himself.  But as I said, ending the Sylar arc would be a great way to find resolution was never really found starting from the first season finale, which is what the idea of redemption is all about.

I realize that a lot of viewers gave up believing in the creators a long time ago, but it&#039;s still possible that they know what they&#039;re doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just have a feeling whether or not this will be the show&#8217;s final season, it&#8217;ll be Sylar&#8217;s finale.  </p>
<p>In a way, it was a symbolic gesture on Nathan&#8217;s part, at least as far as the writers were concerned, since the whole scene was recalling to mind the first episode where he and Peter were on the rooftop and Peter was convinced he could fly.  But it was really Nathan who could.  Peter jumping caused Nathan to play his hand.  At this point, Nathan made perhaps his final bad judgment, thinking he could end it or at least his own predicament by jumping.  I don&#8217;t think he was thinking how best to kill Sylar.  I think he must have believed that since he was in control, there was a reasonable chance that he might be killing them both.  Clearly, Parkman&#8217;s attempt(s) didn&#8217;t work.  (For all we know, it was Sylar keeping Parkman alive after he was shot.)  If Nathan had any reasonable expectation to assume he could plan out a better way, then maybe he would have, but clearly it was a constant struggle to keep his own identity in control.</p>
<p>As for the Sylar fixation, he still serves his basic purpose of maintaining an alternate version of what to do with powers.  He&#8217;s been as much a victim and villain throughout the four seasons.  Granted, he&#8217;s made a lot of bad decisions (and he wouldn&#8217;t be the only one; that&#8217;s how the Company was formed, and how most of the Petrellis operated for years, and what HRG did for a living, etc.), and it becomes a little hard to see how he can redeem himself.  But as I said, ending the Sylar arc would be a great way to find resolution was never really found starting from the first season finale, which is what the idea of redemption is all about.</p>
<p>I realize that a lot of viewers gave up believing in the creators a long time ago, but it&#8217;s still possible that they know what they&#8217;re doing.</p>
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		<title>By: Quinn</title>
		<link>http://www.lowerdecks.com/2009/12/01/heroes-4x11-the-fifth-stage-review/comment-page-1/#comment-2957</link>
		<dc:creator>Quinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lowerdecks.com/?p=2616#comment-2957</guid>
		<description>I agree that the show has gotten better this year, but the show just can&#039;t get beyond its obsession with Sylar.  And that&#039;s the thing about the show that constantly drives people like me crazy.

Because let&#039;s face it - Sylar serves zero purpose on this show outside of being a force of evil.  He can no longer find redemption because he&#039;s turned his back on good too many times.  He&#039;s not going to be a good guy, and his arc can only end in defeat.  People might love to hate him, but most of us just hate him.

And it all went south a couple of years ago when Sylar took Claire&#039;s power.  Because at that point, he&#039;s basically power-raping a teenage girl (the way he did it was very sexual) and becoming immortal.

After that, it&#039;s been one fake death after another...and it&#039;s just tiring.  Because there&#039;s nothing left for his character to do...he&#039;s terrorized everyone at some point.

And there have been two clear-cut ways to end his arc and save face.  If Parkman&#039;s suicide attempt had worked, it would&#039;ve been a way to end both characters appropriately.  Parkman could&#039;ve found the strength to accept his hand, and it would&#039;ve left a very powerful Sylar powerless to save himself.  It could&#039;ve been a powerful message to the fans that the safety is no longer on.

That way, there could&#039;ve been the same Petrelli drama - particularly when they learned that Sylar was dead and this alternate Gabriel personality still existed.  Because Gabriel still has a chance for redemption.  It even could&#039;ve been a way to keep Zachary Quinto as a prominent actor on the show.

Then there&#039;s Nathan&#039;s &quot;sacrifice&quot; this week - which I found utterly disappointing.  Nathan makes a difficult decision to &quot;kill himself&quot; - but he does so in a selfish way.  He could&#039;ve cut himself into a million pieces (so that the &quot;spot&quot; could&#039;ve been severed) or blown himself up or something...so that he&#039;d kill Sylar in the process.

Or heck...hold on to the body long enough to put Sylar under so that they could figure out the best way to kill him.

But, no, Nathan just gives up...stops fighting...and gives Sylar the chance to escape.  Seriously?  That&#039;s the hero&#039;s good-bye?  It would&#039;ve been like Spider-Man letting Uncle Ben&#039;s would-be killer escape by killing himself instead of just stepping out of the way.

I just didn&#039;t like it...just like I haven&#039;t liked a single thing they&#039;ve done with Sylar since season one...outside of the brief Parkman/Sylar interchanges we saw yearlier this year.

And until the show can step out of the Zachary Quinto obsession, it will never progress.  And since the show is so focused on that character, that will be the main reason for its death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the show has gotten better this year, but the show just can&#8217;t get beyond its obsession with Sylar.  And that&#8217;s the thing about the show that constantly drives people like me crazy.</p>
<p>Because let&#8217;s face it &#8211; Sylar serves zero purpose on this show outside of being a force of evil.  He can no longer find redemption because he&#8217;s turned his back on good too many times.  He&#8217;s not going to be a good guy, and his arc can only end in defeat.  People might love to hate him, but most of us just hate him.</p>
<p>And it all went south a couple of years ago when Sylar took Claire&#8217;s power.  Because at that point, he&#8217;s basically power-raping a teenage girl (the way he did it was very sexual) and becoming immortal.</p>
<p>After that, it&#8217;s been one fake death after another&#8230;and it&#8217;s just tiring.  Because there&#8217;s nothing left for his character to do&#8230;he&#8217;s terrorized everyone at some point.</p>
<p>And there have been two clear-cut ways to end his arc and save face.  If Parkman&#8217;s suicide attempt had worked, it would&#8217;ve been a way to end both characters appropriately.  Parkman could&#8217;ve found the strength to accept his hand, and it would&#8217;ve left a very powerful Sylar powerless to save himself.  It could&#8217;ve been a powerful message to the fans that the safety is no longer on.</p>
<p>That way, there could&#8217;ve been the same Petrelli drama &#8211; particularly when they learned that Sylar was dead and this alternate Gabriel personality still existed.  Because Gabriel still has a chance for redemption.  It even could&#8217;ve been a way to keep Zachary Quinto as a prominent actor on the show.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s Nathan&#8217;s &#8220;sacrifice&#8221; this week &#8211; which I found utterly disappointing.  Nathan makes a difficult decision to &#8220;kill himself&#8221; &#8211; but he does so in a selfish way.  He could&#8217;ve cut himself into a million pieces (so that the &#8220;spot&#8221; could&#8217;ve been severed) or blown himself up or something&#8230;so that he&#8217;d kill Sylar in the process.</p>
<p>Or heck&#8230;hold on to the body long enough to put Sylar under so that they could figure out the best way to kill him.</p>
<p>But, no, Nathan just gives up&#8230;stops fighting&#8230;and gives Sylar the chance to escape.  Seriously?  That&#8217;s the hero&#8217;s good-bye?  It would&#8217;ve been like Spider-Man letting Uncle Ben&#8217;s would-be killer escape by killing himself instead of just stepping out of the way.</p>
<p>I just didn&#8217;t like it&#8230;just like I haven&#8217;t liked a single thing they&#8217;ve done with Sylar since season one&#8230;outside of the brief Parkman/Sylar interchanges we saw yearlier this year.</p>
<p>And until the show can step out of the Zachary Quinto obsession, it will never progress.  And since the show is so focused on that character, that will be the main reason for its death.</p>
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